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Salvation - What is it? Can I lose it? and other questions...

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AimlessKyleen	Salvation - What is it? Can I lose it? and other questions...		Lead	[-]
Posts: 299 04/14/08 17:46:02	Tags : None The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly "innocent" and "righteous" man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived. And this He did for us! "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right. With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good. The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly "exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:11). Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, "for the present," He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives. "For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28). What is the work of the Father in securing eternally our salvation? The eternal security of believers rests on the Father's purpose in choosing us to salvation in eternity past and predestinating us to sonship in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5). Further, God's power is promised to keep us secure in salvation (Romans 8:28-30), for the ones that the Father foreknew, predestined, called (effectually to salvation, cf. 1 Corinthians 1:21-24), and justified are the very same ones he "glorified". (Paul uses the past tense since in God's sight it is "good as done" that we will one day be conformed to the image of Christ in heaven). Further, Jesus Christ guaranteed that we are secure in His and the Father's hand, and so He will keep safe each one who has received the gift of eternal life (John 10:28-29). What is the work of the Son in securing eternally our salvation? Our security further rests on the death and the prayers of Jesus Christ. He has redeemed us (Ephesians 1:7) and removed the wrath of God from us (Romans 3:25) so that we may be justified (Romans 5:1), forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:2). Further, "Christ's present ministry in heaven of praying for His own consists of two aspects: a preventive ministry (intercession) and a curative ministry (advocacy). His prayer in [John] chapter 17 illustrates the preventive aspect. There He prayed that we might be kept from the evil one (v. 15), that we would be sanctified (v. 17), that we would be united (v. 21), that we would be in heaven with Him (v. 24), and that we might behold His glory (v. 24). Because of His unceasing intercession for us He is able to save us completely and eternally (Hebrews 7:25)". [3] -Charles Ryrie The "curative" aspect of Christ's present ministry is indicated in 1 John 2:1. When we do sin as believers, He acts as our Advocate before the Father, forgiveness and cleansing of all our sins. What is the work of the Holy Spirit in securing eternally our salvation? By the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, we have received eternal life (Titus 3:5). When we trusted Christ, the Holy Spirit began an eternal indwelling ministry in us (John 14:17). Also He was the seal placed on us by the Father to guarantee our future inheritance (Ephesians 4:30). And He baptized us into union with Christ and into the body of believers (1 Corinthians 12:13). Can a saved person ever be lost? "For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation, then the person is forever secure." [4] -Paul Enns "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?" -Romans 8:31; cf. vv. 32-39 *Kyleen* My Myspace
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AimlessKyleen		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 300 04/14/08 17:49:56	Many people struggle with uncertainty about their salvation. If you are facing this struggle, here are some questions you can ask yourself to help you be certain about your relationship to God. Have I believed in Jesus Christ as the substitute for my sins and received him as my personal Savior? The Bible says that this is the only requirement for salvation. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God (John 1:12). Are you trusting feelings, rather than God's Word, for assurance of salvation? The Bible says: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36). I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24). Are you basing your salvation on what you do for God, instead of what God has done for you? The Bible says that we can do nothing to earn our salvation. God, because of His grace, did all that needs to be done. He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy (Titus 3:5a). For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). The Bible says that we can know for certain that we have eternal life if we have believed in Jesus as our Savior! And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:11-13). Evidences of the Christian Life Belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died as the substitute for our sins is the only requirement for salvation. The following are not tests of our faith, because we cannot be good enough to merit God's salvation. We can be encouraged that we do have eternal life because God says so, because changes have taken place in our lives, because we want to share Christ with others, and because we desire to live lives that would be pleasing to God. We know that we have eternal life because God says we do. God's Word tells us that we have eternal life if we have received Christ as our Savior. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:13). We know that we have eternal life because changes have taken place in our lives since we became a Christian. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17). These may be small changes. At first, they may not even be noticeable to others. But this verse tells us that positionally, we become a new person when we accept Christ and changes in our life are inevitable. We know that we have eternal life because we want to share Christ with others. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (Romans 1:16). We know that we have eternal life because we want to live godly lives. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say no to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age… (Titus 2:11-12). *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 42 04/14/08 20:22:47	I agree and disagree with the statements up above because of this scripture. John 15:1-9 1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. I agree, because accepting the gift of Salvation means we are saved, however, we need to remain in Jesus, otherwise Salvation can be lost.
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AimlessKyleen		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 304 04/14/08 20:37:09	I don't believe salvation can be lost unless you consciously choose to commit the ONE sin that the Bible says is unforgivable... to turn your back on Christ and blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I believe that once a person truly has Christ in his/her heart (and thus, salvation), fruit will follow, as the scripture you quoted says. I think the "branch that does not bear fruit" is in reference to non-believers or those who attend church but are not truly saved. *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 43 04/14/08 20:45:20	I would agree with that, but in my opinion, it seems pretty clear in saying that he cuts off every branch in me that does not bear fruit. Also, it says "If anyone does not remain in me", rather than anyone I "never knew" (Matt 7:23).
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BiggestChris		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 44 04/14/08 20:50:04	Hebrews 10:26-27. "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgement and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
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AimlessKyleen		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 305 04/14/08 20:50:18	We can debate salvation in the debate forum, but this forum is not for that... So I'm going to copy this conversation into the debate forum and delete the responses in here. So head over to the debate forum in a minute, k? *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 47 04/15/08 09:04:54	So that was crazy, I clicked on this and the maintainence had started already.
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AimlessKyleen		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 311 04/15/08 19:03:26	haha, I know, that happened to me too last night. Bummer! But please... continue! *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 48 04/16/08 00:49:24	Well, I thought it was your turn...
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AimlessKyleen		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 327 04/16/08 11:52:52	I have never seen those verses in Hebrews in such a context before, and it's definitely caused me to think. I'm not in a position to debate this issue because, really, I've not established yet what I believe on it... I don't know which position is supported biblically to be honest. I know what I've been taught, and I know what I feel, but from a theological standpoint I'm not sure... *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 49 04/16/08 13:29:58	Okay, well, just to give you a general idea of what the denominations believe... Anglican/Episcopalian - "Holy Baptism is full initiation by water and the Holy Spirit into Christ's Body the Church. The bond which God establishes in Baptism is indissoluble." Book of Common Prayers (BCP) 1979, p. 298. Assembly of God - Assembly of God Christians believe salvation can be lost. "The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost." AG.org Baptist - Baptists do not believe salvation can be lost. "All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end." SBC Lutheran - Lutherans believe salvation can be lost when a believer does not persist in the faith. "... it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us ... A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith ... by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation." LCMS Methodist - Methodists do believe salvation can be lost. "God accepts my choice ... and continues to reach out to me with the grace of repentance to bring me back to the way of salvation and sanctification." UMC Presbyterian - Cannot lose Salvation. Roman Catholic - Catholics do believe salvation can be lost. "The first effect of mortal sin in man is to avert him from his true last end, and deprive his soul of sanctifying grace." CE Final perseverance is a gift from God, but man must cooperate with the gift. CE It varies, and I think it's a nonissue in some ways, however, it's important for those who keep sinning, so I guess it is important.
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AimlessKyleen		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 329 04/16/08 17:10:29	Well I don't believe that we can "sin enough" to have God "take away our salvation." I just don't believe that. I don't believe, either, that we will lose our salvation for continuing in a known sin... not alone, anyways. I do think that the desire to continue in sin, once we know it is sin, leads ultimately to our decision to walk away from Christ. But I do not think it is the sin itself that does it - didn't Christ become sin on the cross so that we would no longer have that barrier?? Consider Romans 7 - Paul himself struggled with continuing to sin and continuing to do what he knew was evil... does that mean that Paul lost his salvation? Doubt it. I don't know. I really struggle to believe that we can lose our salvation because of sin, when the gift of grace given to us by God through Christ on the cross was given to cover that chasm. Can we choose to give that gift back or not to accept it? Yes. But by continuing to live in sin, even knowingly? I do not believe that. *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 50 04/16/08 22:44:18	Well, also consider this. Romans 7:19 (paraphrase) What I want to do I don't do, what I do I don't want to do. I hate saying it like this, but it's also a matter of the effort your putting into your walk. If I were still addicted to drugs, but was in a drug rehab program but still did drugs, at least I'm doing something about it. I also don't think God takes away Salvation, rather we may choose to leave it Also, a big Lutheran phrase is "saved by grace through faith." If someone doesn't have faith, or loses faith, do they lose their Salvation. I don't believe Salvation is an easy thing to lose, but I also don't think that there is only two ways to lose our Salvation. What do you think of that explanation?
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debsfattyarse		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 88 04/17/08 02:02:48	i've kept quiet through this debate and just watched it develop... mainly because i fear that i will wake up one morning and realise all my problems are in fact big sins and that through them i have lost God's salvation.... i hope that my fears aren't true. i've been told so many times of God's mercy and his forgiveness of our sins. that so long as we aknowledge his lordship, the sacrifice he made through Jesus and don't turn our backs on those facts, we are still saved, no matter what our earthly sins and indiscressions are. does that make sense?! or am i completely barking up the wrong tree my xanga I would love to be a glow worm Cos they are never glum How can you be unhappy? When the sun shines out your bum!
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AimlessKyleen		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 340 04/17/08 14:06:36	No, that's where I am too Debs. Chris, if you can point me to scripture that supports your claim, please share. I only know of ONE sin that the Bible says is a deal-breaker, and that's the one about blaspheming the Holy Spirit and rejecting Christ. And if the Bible doesn't say otherwise, I choose to go with scripture. We are saved by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Period. So in answer to your question - yes, if we stop having faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, we give up our gift of salvation. But again, God knows our hearts, and knows whether or not we have truly lost faith in Christ, or if we are simply confused or angry or whatever. *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 52 04/17/08 20:33:01	I think that we agree, but are saying the same thing in different ways... It's not the fact that we sin that we can lose Salvation. Luke 8:11-15: Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it. Rev 3:1-6: In Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin. Jesus says whoever overcomes will not be blotted out of the book of life. This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice. So.. basically why I think we are dancing around the same answer, is that I don't think we can lose Salvation by sinning unintentionally, because we ask God for forgiveness. But we can choose to leave Christ, and thus lose Salvation...
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AimlessKyleen		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 341 04/17/08 21:03:34	I don't believe Salvation is an easy thing to lose, but I also don't think that there is only two ways to lose our Salvation. This is what you said that has me confused on where you stand. If there are other reasons stated biblically than the one I mentioned above, that's what I'd like to hear more about. So.. basically why I think we are dancing around the same answer, is that I don't think we can lose Salvation by sinning unintentionally, because we ask God for forgiveness. But we can choose to leave Christ, and thus lose Salvation... And I don't think we are dancing around the same answer because I don't think we will lose salvation by unintentional sin, OR by intentional sin. I do not equate intentionally sinning with rejecting Christ altogether. *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 54 04/18/08 02:29:20	Hmm... Okay, well let's just take Rev 3:1-6: 1 To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. What is your interpretation of this verse? Here's mine: "You have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead." means people think you are saved in Christ, but you are not. "Yet you have few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy." means There are not many people in Sardis that haven't fallen into a sinful lifestyle. But those that haven't fallen will walk with me, for they are worthy. "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out name from book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and His angels." means that those who perservere through sin and temptation andalways turn back to Jesus will be as though they never turned away.
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AimlessKyleen		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 357 04/18/08 13:44:20	Again, I think our interpretations are totally different, aside from the first. I do believe that "you have a reputation of being alive, but are dead" speaks of people who appear to be christian but are not. We can deduce this because the correlation between relationship with Christ and life was made over and over again throughout the Gospel, and death was often used to describe any existence without Christ. I think you took a lot of liberties with the others, though. "Worthy" as mentioned in this passage has nothing to do with our worth in relation to sin, but rather the worth which Christ placed on us when we became His. So again, this just points back to people who are not truly Christian, not to christians who are sinning. "Soiled their clothes" is in relation to the white robe of righteousness placed on us at baptism, or when we accept Christ into our lives, so it does have relationship with sin. However, to soil the righteousness of Christ takes a lot more than sin because He has power over our sin if we are Christian. To soil that garment means to turn away from Christ. So again, this passage refers to those who are not truly christian, not to Christians who are in sin. The blood of Christ (the blood of the Lamb) washes us white as snow... ESPECIALLY sinners. This was a warning to the church of Sardis which once readily accepted the Gospel, but had members who quickly fell away or became complacent. It was not a judgment, nor was it a declaration that their sin had in some way made them lose salvation. I think to make that stretch takes a lot of personal liberty in interpretation. It was a wakeup call for the church leaders at Sardis, and an encouragement to reach out to those in their church who may not truly know Christ. This is all directed towards those who are not truly Christian and says nothing about sin causing a loss of salvation. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 *Kyleen* My Myspace
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BiggestChris		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 57 04/18/08 22:13:55	Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation. How about the Prodigal Son story? The son left the father, and when he came back he was "alive again." I interpret this as he was saved, he left God and became lost, but when he came home he was saved again.
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